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nickff 13 hours ago [-]
>"Bulgarian Interior Minister Ivan Demerdzhiev told parliament that additional security measures had been introduced at similar facilities, even though responsibility for their protection rested with their owners."
It seems absurd that the government is blaming SpaceX for not securing its property against trespass and vandalism/arson, especially when it seems likely that the violations are by foreign-state-sponsored actors. If this sort of issue is not the responsibility of local police and federal agencies, I am not sure what is. I understand that railways in some countries have their own police, but it is my understanding that SpaceX has not been granted such powers in any country.
bobbyraduloff 12 hours ago [-]
Demerdzhiev, Radev and their entire cabinet in general just avoid blaming Russia for some “unknown” reason as a blanket policy. Yesterday, Russia bombed two Ukrainian ships super close to Bulgaria’s waters in the Black Sea, 11 civilians died, and the PM still says we can’t make any conclusions about the perpetrators when questioned in parliament today.
I’m trying to say that the logical conclusion is to shift the responsibility explicitly to SpaceX, since otherwise you have to admit the attacks are state sponsored and you have to name the perpetrator.
keyKeeper 11 hours ago [-]
They just move the burden of proof and responsibility as needed. 4 ships carrying Ukraine cargo sunk by drones in Bulgarian waters, one of the ships Ukraine owned and the crew full of Ukrainians? No evidence whatsoever on who could have done it so we don’t blame anyone. Yes yes logic says it must be Russia but we need concrete evidence, so unfortunate.
Ukraine responds to Russian attacks? Why Ukraine doesn’t want peace! Why Ukraine doesn’t just capitulate? The coalition of war(he means countries who support Ukraine militarily) is causing so much suffering.
The pro-Russian folks are insufferable.
severino 37 minutes ago [-]
> They just move the burden of proof and responsibility as needed. 4 ships carrying Ukraine cargo sunk by drones in Bulgarian waters, one of the ships Ukraine owned and the crew full of Ukrainians? No evidence whatsoever on who could have done it so we don’t blame anyone
Well, the official stance of the EU a couple of years ago, when the Nordstream pipeline was attacked, was that it was Russia (even though it was against its interests). So we can have something similar here, right? That it was Ukraine that sunk those vessels. I understand the Bulgarian PM, he's just trying to be a standard EU politician.
paganel 52 minutes ago [-]
It was the Ukrainians the ones who started sinking civilian ships, sometime last year at the same time (or maybe even earlier, too lazy to check on arr UkraineRussiaReport). It was a very bad move for them and it was also a very move for us, the other countries bordering the Black Sea (I live in Romanian myself, I'm about to go to Constanta this very weekend), but here we are. Our political leaders from back then (both from Romania and Bulgaria) didn't tell the Ukrainians anything like "hey, stop with this shooting war at civilian shipping in our shared sea!", and we, their unlucky slaves, now have to bear the consequences. Such is life when one's ruled by comprador leaders in a neo-colonial system.
freefrog1234aa 2 hours ago [-]
Ukraine started the attacks on commercial shipping in the Black Sea and Caspian. A 40 day offensive to bring Russia to the negotiation table that backfired when Russia started targeting Ukranian ships and Odessa.
Zanfa 2 hours ago [-]
Russia has been targeting Ukrainian ships and shipping infrastructure since the start of the full-scale invasion.
raducu 1 hours ago [-]
Russia is the aggressor, absolutely.
However, let's talk realpolitik.
Ukraine innovates and Russia copies/addapts. Russia has ALWAYS been good at this game. Russia reminds me so much of the roman military in this sense, extremely good at copying and incorporating foreign military tactics/equipment.
Think of the initial long convoys ukraine destroyed, the bayraktars -- Russia addapted, the then the brilliant Eastern campaign where Ukraine managed to route the russians -- Russia adapted, that stopped working, then the indiscriminate massive artilery strikes Russia was doing -- ukraine started using better western artilery and himars, stopped the russians but the russians also addapted spread their logistics and so on; then the drones -- russia copied those even innovated with fiberoptic drones, then the Shaheds, ukraine adapted with fpv interceptors, then Russia started using jet powered interceptors, balistic missiles -- Ukraine initially stunned the world with Patriot interceptors but Russia kept firing until Ukraine ran out of interceptors, then the USV -- Ukraine had and still has great success with them, but look, Russia started using USVs also and Ukraine has no response to those.
It looks like the end will be decided by the country who just has more resources and willpower to continue.
I'm seriously scared for the next years -- the US is clearly turning hostile to Ukraine, Europe is turing far right with russian puppets everywhere.
freefrog1234aa 1 hours ago [-]
Not since the grain corridor agreement. This agreement made commercial shipping off limits.
Zanfa 58 minutes ago [-]
Russia withdrew from that deal in July 2023
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
> Ukraine started
Nothing. Your master did with his 3 day invasion.
11 hours ago [-]
michaelt 9 hours ago [-]
Bit of one, bit of the other.
If I open something like a stadium, and whenever there's a big game I need a load of security to deal with traffic, drunk fans, and fights - arguably most of the security should be paid for from ticket sales, rather than the taxpayer, although the taxpayer should be there as the final backstop.
Likewise, if I have a bank with a vault full of valuables and I think it needs 3 armed guards present 24/7 - probably that's going to be at my expense, not that of the taxpayer. Although any bank should get a police presence in a reasonably timely manner, once they raise the alarm about a robbery.
arccy 13 hours ago [-]
most of what police do is after the fact. you're responsible for securing your own property, security guards are a thing everywhere.
nickff 13 hours ago [-]
>"you're responsible for securing your own property, security guards are a thing everywhere."
Maybe Bulgaria differs from most countries, but security guards seem to be mostly theatre. Private actors are generally very limited in what they can do to secure property, and they're usually required to basically call the police and hope the police show up in time to do something, which is often unlikely in either the countryside or industrial areas.
fasterik 13 hours ago [-]
I think the point would be that it's the private company's responsibility to provide a minimum level of security, even if their job is just for deterrence, documentation, and notifying police in a timely manner. Even if it's mostly "theatre" it still serves a purpose.
rickdeckard 9 hours ago [-]
Even more in this case: The business Starlink is operating is classified as critical infrastructure (in both EU and US)
As providers in the business of critical infrastructure they need to comply to the HIGHEST physical and digital security requirements, which includes taking preventive measures against acts of terrorism.
Not much is known about this case yet though, it's possible that their preventive procedures failed but their resilience procedures worked (was Starlink down?), and they reported the incident in compliance to EU CER and NIS2.
Either way, I'm sure they'll get an audit for EU CER compliance now, which will create a list of mandated immediate actions...
nine_k 2 hours ago [-]
Is deployment of surface-to-air missiles, flak cannons, Gatling guns, and anti-air radars going to become a standard requirement? Unfortunately, Starlink can't go the easy route and just dig itself 100ft underground, they need satellite comms.
rickdeckard 2 hours ago [-]
Let's not exaggerate. Two persons apparently entered Starlink's premises and put their equipment on fire.
It doesn't take a gatling gun to prevent that, basic physical security and stronger incident-handling will suffice.
close04 1 hours ago [-]
The responsibility to do their best to protect is still with the owner, it doesn't mean they must succeed at any cost. They must only do their best. Did they do their best?
I read the statement as the government introduced additional security measures "even though responsibility for their protection rested with their owners". These measures weren't "surface-to-air missiles, flak cannons, Gatling guns, and anti-air radars". Clearly more could have been done before digging into the bag of silly options. The owners just didn't do it.
There's a fine line between hyperbola to make a point, and hyperbola as a silly attempt to blur the issue. You comment is on the wrong side.
mrtksn 11 hours ago [-]
In Bulgaria the security guards used to be just protection rackets. Then EU happened and the country normalized but even the previous prime minister used to be a bodyguard.
When those people aren’t around Bulgaria is incredibly peaceful country.
epolanski 10 hours ago [-]
Security, physical or software is multi-tiered.
You install gates, raise walls, limit access, hire personnel, etc.
The more you need to secure whatever it is, the more layers you have.
In general, any respectable warehouse would have an external wall with a single entrance to the parking, and then a second entrance to the building itself.
EA-3167 12 hours ago [-]
It really depends on the site being secured and who's acting as a guard. Try to storm a major US airbase and you'll learn very quickly that not all guards are created equal. Do the same as your local strip mall and yeah... that guy is only there to break up fights between kids and call the cops.
xboxnolifes 10 hours ago [-]
US airbase guards are not private actors, which is their point.
cowlevel 7 hours ago [-]
What is the definition of being responsible for a property's security?
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
>most of what police do is after the fact.
This. Police are just the clean-up crew who come 20 minutes after, and fill in the paperwork proving that something bad did indeed happen to you, that you can then use for your lawsuit or insurance claim, nothing more.
Unless you're a politician or the billionaire owner of an island, they're not gonna do much more to actually prevent or solve your problem.
rickdeckard 9 hours ago [-]
In this case they even might come in and check if you didn't take sufficient actions to prevent this bad event.
An individual will be informed how not having a lock on the door was a failure in individual responsibility to prevent harm against yourself/others.
But an operator of digital infrastructure might get audited for compliance of the critical infrastructure directive/act. In the EU fines for such violations can be as high as €10 million or 2% of global turnover.
buckle8017 13 hours ago [-]
security guards vs FSB.
uh huh
yencabulator 11 hours ago [-]
The people who started the fire are not going to be FSB employees, they're useful idiots that got paid for some vandalism who won't even know who hired them. Plausible deniability.
FireBeyond 12 hours ago [-]
Why would the FSB care? Tthe recent limitations on SpaceX in the Ukraine are to Russia's benefit, not Ukraine's.
NetMageSCW 12 hours ago [-]
I believe he was suggesting the saboteurs were FSB because shutting down Ukraine’s Internet access is still in Russia’s interest.
FireBeyond 8 hours ago [-]
I don't know how that particular perspective was overlooked by me, but it absolutely was!
aaron695 10 hours ago [-]
[dead]
Anonyneko 12 hours ago [-]
Not that different, perhaps, from Russia making businesses responsible for defending their sites against drones. Even threatening to nationalize the businesses that fail to establish adequate defenses. How a business can get ahold of military-grade anti-air defense systems is left mostly unanswered.
rickdeckard 11 hours ago [-]
I don't know why it should be the governments job to secure private properties of corporations against vandalism/arson. It sounds much more absurd to me.
Starlink providing services to a customer (which made them a target in this case) is not a matter the local government of that site needs to protect them against.
--> Is it a local governments' job to secure the local properties of e.g. Lockheed, or the job of Lockheed as a for-profit supplier to the military?
--
Edit, as I expected this to be much more widely known: If you are operating in the business of critical infrastructure (for which Starlink qualifies, explicitly "digital infrastructure"), you have obligations to protect your facilities against physical and cyber attacks and have resilience and business continuity processes in place.
If you decide to operate in a business segment for critical infrastructure, it is not the governments job to secure your business, YOU have to comply to the requirements of operating in this field, and the government can audit and shut down your business if you're not in compliance.
In the EU, where this incident took place, this is well-defined under the CER-directive, and further extended for IT under NIS2 and CRE.
In the US, it's covered by CISA and CIRCIA (Cyber Incident Reporting for Critical Infrastructure Act)
grayfaced 6 hours ago [-]
It's absolutely the role of the security agencies to protect against foreign attack. Are Oil tankers and Cargo ships supposed to have air defense? What about the World Trade Centers? Otherwise there is no purpose to having a military if you won't defend your sovereignty.
That doesn't absolve the orgs responsibility, but the questions should be directed at both.
rickdeckard 1 hours ago [-]
I'm certain there will be investigations from the government, not only due to the suspicion of a foreign state attack but also on the grounds of Starlink not sufficiently securing their premises.
It's not the responsibility of security agencies to prevent two guys from entering the premises of a critical infrastructure provider with gasoline.
They may have prior intelligence to act on this, but it is the operator of that facility who has the responsibility to ensure a certain level of security and resilience of his own premises, and this is strictly defined.
-
> "Are Oil tankers and Cargo ships supposed to have air defense?"
No, this would turn a civilian into a combatant ship, causing it to lose the civilian protections of the UN (The Ocean is governed by conventions of the United Nations, it's a different jurisdiction)
And still, oil tankers and cargo ships have requirements to secure themselves against piracy, terrorism and even warfare, mandated by the international maritime organization.
carsoon 11 hours ago [-]
Because internet is a major resource for the population. Its like water or electricity.
Most of those could be easily targeted and taken out by a large organized group but people are generally good and dont do that. If a country's military attacked though you wouldn't blame the water company for someone cutting the locks and destroying the water pumps. Or blowing up an electric facility.
Its not like this is just some random companies headquarters where they have some vehicles and someone broke the gates to spray paint the trucks.
This is an attack on the people of the country as a whole. The attackers are not vandalizing the internet because they dislike starlink they are attacking its people by destroying infrastructure. there is a major difference between the two.
rickdeckard 10 hours ago [-]
> "Because internet is a major resource for the population. Its like water or electricity."
Yep, the EU classifies this as "critical infrastructure". Operators of such services (including water, electricity and digital infrastructure) have to comply to the highest level of the EU CER-directive for Physical and Cyber Security. This includes physical shielding, strict access controls and resilience against physical sabotage/terrorism as well as natural disasters or severe climate changes
I agree that the government should step up on against the military adversary on a country/regional level, but even then it is not their job to step in and do the job of Starlink as a provider of critical digital infrastructure.
A player in these markets has an obligation to secure his own facilities, otherwise every new market-entrant can undercut all competitors by not investing in security at all, until it's big enough to become a national risk and the government steps in to secure its business.
baxtr 11 hours ago [-]
How is a tax-paying corporation different from a tax-paying person?
It's in the core interest of any government to protect its citizens, including corporate ones.
rickdeckard 11 hours ago [-]
Both need to act in compliance with local laws and mandates, it's not the job of the government to fill the gaps.
Corporations have more duties of different scale than individuals.
Starlink is a provider of Digital Infrastructure, and is already classified as "Essential Entity" under the EU CER-directive.
As such, it needs to comply with so-called "Physical-Cyber Convergence Requirements", which entails
1. Perimeter and Access Defense
2. All-Hazards Mitigation: Designing infrastructure to resist natural disasters, severe climate changes, or physical sabotage/terrorism.
3. Vetted Personnel: Utilizing mandatory background checks and security clearances for operators working in sensitive zones
Not much is known about this incident at this stage, and I'm sure the government will conduct own investigations. But regardless of the outcome, it will be the duty of Starlink to secure its facilities.
andylynch 10 hours ago [-]
Depends on the infra, and the level of anxiety generally and specifically.
Petty vandalism no, but I’ve worked at a few and know more completely non-military business premises that absolutely have “military barricade” or the like quietly in their contingency plans.
Funny thing is, a bit of arson is kind of normal on their estates. But usually it’s just stolen cars.
rickdeckard 10 hours ago [-]
The EU already classifies digital services like those provided by Starlink as "critical infrastructure".
Operators of such services have to comply to the highest level of the EU CER-directive for Physical and Cyber Security. This includes physical shielding, strict access controls and resilience against physical sabotage/terrorism as well as natural disasters or severe climate changes. This is the duty of every player in this business.
The government has a job to stand up against a potential adversary of the country (be it other countries or local terrorists), and in case of an attack on critical infrastructure the government will also step in to protect it, I agree on that.
But it doesn't have the job to take over Starlink's (or whoever's) business operations and make it secure. That is the job of the company, long before it even appears on any map of a potential adversary...
AnimalMuppet 11 hours ago [-]
It's the government's job to protect both individuals and corporations against foreign attack. It's even the government's job to protect against crime.
rickdeckard 10 hours ago [-]
> "It's even the government's job to protect against crime"
It's the government's job to protect against crime, but the duty of an individual to take proactive measures against becoming a victim of crime ("Individual Responsibility").
--> They won't put a policeman in front of my house just because I decided to not have a door on my house.
-
Equally, (and MUCH more explicitly), it's the legal duty of corporations to protect themsselves against crime, especially if they provide critical infrastructure.
--> They won't put police all over my facilities just because I didn't invest in access-control.
--> In this case, I am not in compliance with the law and considered to invite(!) crime
AnimalMuppet 9 hours ago [-]
It's both/and, not either/or. Yes, I have individual responsibility to have a door on my house, and to be careful about walking in sketchy places. And the government has a responsibility to combat crime. Both.
A critical infrastructure company has an obligation to keep their facilities secure. And the government has a responsibility to prevent attacks by foreign actors on critical infrastructure.
rickdeckard 8 hours ago [-]
> "And the government has a responsibility to prevent attacks by foreign actors on critical infrastructure."
I replied explicitly to "crime", not "foreign actors", let's not conflate those just for a straw-man argument.
Preventing attacks by foreign actors is part of National intelligence and military, this is an entirely different matter. Both are entities facing outwards of a country, not inwards.
But more importantly, their job is not to fulfill the required security duties of a critical infrastructure company to prevent physical/digital attacks against the operation and resilience of its infrastructure.
And even IF they protect such a company in case of an imminent external threat, this is not a replacement for the legally required security compliance.
The critical infrastructure act (US) and directive (EU) mandate strategic measures to take explicitly against terrorist attacks, even natural disasters.
The government won't come to your company and do this job FOR you, they will lock you up and, in the EU, charge you up to xx% of your global annual revenue if they find out you're not doing it.
rickdeckard 11 hours ago [-]
This is not how this works, corporations are not people.
As a provider for digital infrastructure, Starlink is required to comply with the EU Critical Entities Resilience (CER) Directive, which mandates strict physical and digital security as well as business continuity in case of crisis.
The nature of this incident indicates a security issue on the site of Starlink, which is their duty, not the governments.
They may have not been in compliance with this directive, which puts local infrastructure and citizens and risk.
Barrin92 11 hours ago [-]
>I don't know why it should be the governments job to secure private properties of corporations against vandalism/arson.
because this isn't 'vandalism', this is an act of war by a foreign adversary that is now happening on European and NATO soil on a daily basis, and instead of responding accordingly we talk about this as if a drunk kid laid a fire somewhere
rickdeckard 11 hours ago [-]
> "because this isn't 'vandalism', this is an act of war by a foreign adversary that is now happening on European and NATO soil on a daily basis"
Agree, the government should step in and (finally!!) take actions against those foreign adversaries.
But this doesn't change the fact that it is not the governments role to protect the facilities of a infrastructure provider against sabotage (or even acts of terror), a company providing such services in the EU has to comply to the CER directive and secure its operations.
There is a very basic reason for that: I could undercut every provider on the market by not investing in security and resilience. while everything works well I will beat all my established competitors and gain a significant share of the market.
This creates a risk of critical infrastructure stability for the citizens of that country. So if inevitable issues in resilience arise.....I demand the government to step in and take over my operations...?
pwdisswordfishq 11 hours ago [-]
> federal agencies
It's cute when Americans assume every country's constitution is the same as their own.
10 hours ago [-]
rickdeckard 11 hours ago [-]
> "It seems absurd that the government is blaming SpaceX for not securing its property against trespass and vandalism/arson, especially when it seems likely that the violations are by foreign-state-sponsored actors"
I think neither private companies nor tax-payers would appreciate if the POLICE would run security for a for-profit corporation, as it means that all corporate access-permissions would de-facto be managed by the government administration (which would be financed by the taxes of citizens and other corporations...)
Also: Would be even more ironic for Starlink to now demand big-BIG-government after their CEO keeps pushing for small-government for years now. But it fits the typical "Privatize profits, socialize costs" view...
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
>If this sort of issue is not the responsibility of local police and federal agencies, I am not sure what is.
It's the Balkans mate. You pay next to no taxes, and so you also get next to no services back from the government.
The Police, education, healthcare, courts, etc. that exist, is just a skeleton crew in minimum load bearing role, not to actually solve your problem when you need it. For that you gotta pay private and costs extra.
phoronixrly 13 hours ago [-]
As a Balkanian I vouch for this. Even what little you pay as taxes gets embezzled and you are always on your own.
ExoticPearTree 12 hours ago [-]
On the upside, there is little that surprises you and you thrive in any environment. Balkans FTW.
miroljub 13 hours ago [-]
Why would Balkan tax payers pay to secure foreign corporation? Especially if that corporation is involved in a war they don't care which makes it a legitimate military target.
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>Why would Balkan tax payers pay to secure foreign corporation?
Because foreign corporations operating in the Balkans pay taxes in the balkans, own property/real estate on Balkan soil on which their business operates, and employ workers in the balkans.
tpxl 1 hours ago [-]
> Because foreign corporations operating in the Balkans pay taxes in the balkans
Ahaha, as if.
Foreign corporations with presence but no local entity pay no taxes. Foreign corporations with local entities somehow manage pay zero taxes because all profits are transferred to their Ireland parent entities.
Domestic corporations have far less options to not pay taxes, so they mostly do.
miroljub 12 hours ago [-]
Bulgaria is not a war party, Starlink is. Whatever taxes they pay, it doesn't cover special military protection or war involvement, just regular protection from theft, trespass and similar, like any other company not involved in war.
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>Bulgaria is not a war party, Starlink is [...] it doesn't cover special military protection or war involvement
Huh? So by your logic, if Russian soldiers in fatigues are shooting up a Ukrainian Roshen candy shop in Sofia Bulgaria, it's no the job of the Bulgarian state to intervene and fire back at those Russian soldiers on Bulgarian soil or arrest them, because according to you it's just a war dispute between Russia and Ukraine that doesn't concern Bulgaria and it's government law enforcement?
In the end it'll be up to the courts to decide if the incident on Starlink is an act of war not covered by insurance and law enforcement, or vandalism that falls under the responsibility of the Bulgarian state law enforcement, but you're logic is pure comedic FUBAR.
FabCH 12 hours ago [-]
A more appropriate comparison would be if Russian agents assassinated a local industrialist.
And, well, would you expect the state to proactively assign military protection details to such people?
No. They would have their own body guards, and maybe a police protection if needed. But not army.
The spy and counterspy agency would probably investigate, but they are not going to post a flak cannon next to each Starlink base station.
merely-unlikely 11 hours ago [-]
> if Russian agents assassinated a local industrialist
Funny you mention that - Russia has tried at least once going back as far as 2024[1]. State security services intervened.
> US intelligence discovered earlier this year that the Russian government planned to assassinate the chief executive of a powerful German arms manufacturer that has been producing artillery shells and military vehicles for Ukraine, according to five US and western officials familiar with the episode.
> When the Americans learned of the effort, they informed Germany, whose security services were then able to protect Papperger and foil the plot. A high-level German government official confirmed that Berlin was warned about the plot by the US.
Secret Squirrels will obviously keep track of who wants to blow up Starlink, but they will not interfere unless it makes sense for the country.
Completely different than parking a tank preventively in front of each base station. Or even just a police car.
warkdarrior 12 hours ago [-]
Because that foreign corporation presumedly purchased the local property, pays local taxes on it, and probably employs some local people. Or are you claiming that the property of anyone foreign anywhere is up for grabs because they're foreign?
FabCH 12 hours ago [-]
In many countries, foreigners are not even allowed to buy property in the first place.
It’s not exactly uncommon or inconceivable that yes, the property of foreigners doesn’t quite get the same protections.
petesergeant 12 hours ago [-]
You're seriously asking why the state would enforce property rights?
miroljub 12 hours ago [-]
They should rather seize the property of a company trying to make a country involved in war and endangering its population by operating military actions from that country soil.
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
You're stretching it beyond sound reason.
And by your own argument, Bulgaria would also be at war with Russia then, since Bulgaria has been supporting Ukraine with weapons and material in this war.
walrus01 13 hours ago [-]
Starlink sites are mostly at dwdm regen hut sites, which as a general industry baseline have a remarkably low level of security.
epolanski 10 hours ago [-]
You don't need any special power to hire security at your plant or warehouse.
12 hours ago [-]
numpad0 13 hours ago [-]
> If this sort of issue is not the responsibility of local police and federal agencies,
... it means those properties are own sovereign nations, or at least autonomous zones! woo hoo, time to declare independence of People's Republic of Mars.
ProAm 12 hours ago [-]
> It seems absurd that the government is blaming SpaceX for not securing its property against trespass and vandalism/arson, especially when it seems likely that the violations are by foreign-state-sponsored actors.
SpaceX is actively meddling in foreign-state wars picking whichever side they choose to support on which day. They made their bed.
nomel 11 hours ago [-]
> SpaceX is actively meddling in foreign-state wars
Starlink is banned, by the US government, from operating in a military context, and cannot be used for military purposes. Do you have a reference/examples for them meddling/supporting wars, or a hint at what you're referring to for someone out of the loop? This is not allowed by very many laws and policies that have been in place since the company started operating.
I suspect you're making a logical leap that them stopping means they're now supporting some opposition?
"Motives" section being the important bits, for why it had to go to the government StarShield system.
Maybe this is the recent disruption referenced?
> On 14 October 2026, Musk said the Ukrainian military was using the US government owned and controlled Starshield system, not Starlink, and the recent change to restrict operational user terminals to those travelling at less than 100 mph (160 km/h) was a US government decision and not his decision.[87]
10 hours ago [-]
11 hours ago [-]
bvcp 12 hours ago [-]
This makes sense if you completely ignore the existence of american law.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
The US government does so why would anyone else care.
mcintyre1994 11 hours ago [-]
Which American law has forced Starlink to introduce the brand new restrictions on Ukraine's use in the last day?
ProAm 10 hours ago [-]
In the most corrupt administration of all time, American law doesnt really get considered at these levels. There are many things Musk and his companies should legally not be doing but not much really happening there. Especially after DOGE killed most the groups looking into these things and the AG is run by Trumps personal attorneys.
gostsamo 13 hours ago [-]
Local here. The new prime minister is a spineless russian rag and everyone around him is from the former communist party. You won't find in them anything approaching self-respect or actual will desire to defend against any russian provocation.
jacquesm 12 hours ago [-]
Well, then he's on Elon's side I guess...
LightBug1 11 hours ago [-]
When you start acting militarily, secure your own shit militarily.
porkbellyeee 11 hours ago [-]
[dead]
NuclearPM 11 hours ago [-]
Most railways aren’t owned by fascist financiers. Probably.
NuclearPM 11 hours ago [-]
“ Ukraine Loses Starlink Access as Musk Says Zelenskiy Went “Too Far” | SpaceX suddenly throttled access to Starlink with no warning, Ukraine says.”
Fucking disgusting.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
Also a warning of why depending on individuals more powerful than entire countries is dangerous
But nobody will pay attention because it’s more profitable that way.
iAMkenough 12 hours ago [-]
It's private property, is it not? I don't see why taxpayers should be on the hook for everything, unless they get a return on their investment.
Nationalize the infrastructure if it's that important to the public.
luke5441 12 hours ago [-]
If you have to defend it yourself why pay taxes? Why not use the money to hire your private army instead?
cgio 12 hours ago [-]
I pay taxes too. I don’t have a policeman stationed outside my home.
iAMkenough 11 hours ago [-]
So you agree "taxpayers should be on the hook for everything"?
Every place SpaceX decides to operate, regardless of what taxpayers want, the taxpayers should foot the entire security bill for their private facilities?
Sounds like socialism.
xboxnolifes 10 hours ago [-]
Everything? No, but governments do have the monopoly on violence. As long as that is true, they bare the primary responsibility of security.
iAMkenough 6 hours ago [-]
So where’s the line drawn? How much should taxpayers be primarily responsible for if a private company doesn’t meet established security standards?
The comments in this thread you’ve joined seem to imply a private company should be held to no standards, and that this specific company’s security should primarily be the responsibility of other taxpayers.
ktm5j 12 hours ago [-]
It's probably just politics, he needs someone to point the finger at.
Geof25 13 hours ago [-]
It is not absurd at all. You can't arrest somebody for a sabotage without letting him to execute the deed. Because if he won't execute there's nothing to arrest him for...
So to prevent a sabotage is to have several layers of security (i.e multiple fences) so you will force the saboteur to commit minor crimes like trespassing first and also slow the saboteur significantly so you can arrest him for these minor crimes.
aucisson_masque 12 hours ago [-]
> It is not absurd at all. You can't arrest somebody for a sabotage without letting him to execute the deed. Because if he won't execute there's nothing to arrest him for...
You can very well arrest someone for the intention of sabotaging.
Pedro_Ribeiro 12 hours ago [-]
Should SpaceX conduct the investigation to prove he had the intention of sabotaging? Ffs
Arresting all the people who happen to walk past a strategic object will fill up your prisons very quickly.
ceejayoz 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, that would be very dumb. Who suggested that?
Geof25 12 hours ago [-]
How else would you like to discover a conspiracy if the saboteur is a tourist coming from abroad? Or of a saboteur is a child who got promised 1000eur for it?
ceejayoz 12 hours ago [-]
> How else would you like to discover a conspiracy if the saboteur is a tourist coming from abroad?
Tips? Mistakes? Customs officers getting a funny feeling about something in their bags? Google searches? Purchases of stuff to make explosives with? Surveillance? The child tells their parents some creepy guy offered them a thousand Euros? Do you think intelligence agencies don't already look for this sort of thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius has a nice example of how this works that doesn't even rely on modern surveillance tech. They accomplished zero sabotage, and six were put to death for it.
> Even before the mission began, it was in danger of being compromised, as George Dasch, commander of the team, left confidential documents on a train, and one of the agents, while drunk, announced to patrons in a Paris tavern that he was a secret agent.
> Immediately upon reaching the beach, at around 30 minutes past midnight the saboteurs were discovered amidst the dunes by unarmed Coast Guard Seaman John C. Cullen, who was accosted by Dasch and offered a bribe of $300. (Cullen had been shortchanged, the money only amounted to $260.) Cullen feigned cooperation but reported the encounter.
> Additional breaches of secrecy occurred; Kerling had boasted to a colleague about their mission, and in Chicago, Herbert Haupt had asked his father to buy him a sports car claiming he needed it while traveling on business for the German government.
Any operation involving humans has opportunities for fuckups.
Geof25 12 hours ago [-]
99% of saboteurs won't do string of such stupid mistakes. So it is a vanishing chance bordering on luck that intelligence will prevent anything and it will be possible to apply conspiracy charges.
ceejayoz 12 hours ago [-]
> 99% of saboteurs won't do string of such stupid mistakes.
Why would I presume this to be any more accurate than "can't arrest somebody for a sabotage without letting him to execute the deed" was?
If sabotage is so easy to perform without detection, why aren't motivated actors doing more of it? It's certainly not a lack of motive at play, here.
> After the war, it was discovered that all the agents Germany sent to Britain had given themselves up or had been captured, with the possible exception of one who committed suicide.
Not a single successful agent in five years of war.
Geof25 9 hours ago [-]
And yet there is much more successful sabotages than prevented ones. It turns out that one can't see into a mind of other person.
ceejayoz 9 hours ago [-]
> And yet there is much more successful sabotages than prevented ones.
Do you think they publicly announce every one they catch? Or that none are ever deterred?
> It turns out that one can't see into a mind of other person.
And yet, we manage to catch people planning things, because sabotage requires more than just a thought.
Forgeties79 12 hours ago [-]
Look at the many examples of it happening for your answer. This isn’t theoretical.
12 hours ago [-]
chinathrow 12 hours ago [-]
Drones do not care about fences.
MisterMunchkin 12 hours ago [-]
I am getting a bit concerned that Russia is actually planning an attack on Eastern Europe.
It’s just like red storm rising, their refineries have been blown up and their diesel will only last 6 months. They need to move now or they’ll have to accept peace and economic prosperity.
TrackerFF 11 hours ago [-]
Russia needs a huge mobilization.
Mobilization turned out to be extremely unpopular, so they can't just do that without some exceptional cause.
That cause would be NATO attacking Russia. So they're engaging heavily in hybrid warfare, doing stuff like that in Europe. They're tying to provoke some small retaliation from NATO countries.
If that happens, they'll declare that the barbarians are at the gate, and they need a huge mobilization of troops.
But they have no interest in actually fighting against NATO. It would end disastrously for Russia, any way you slice it. Kaliningrad would be completely cut off and surrounded, their Arctic and Baltic sea routes would be hostile.
As a bonus, a potential real war with Russia would increase far-right isolationist popularity in Europe.
Personally I think this is all a play to mobilize a ton of soldiers, send them to Ukraine, and expand their occupied areas before a peace deal comes to the table.
rovek 5 hours ago [-]
I follow most of what you're saying, but not so much the increase in the popularity of far-right ideology. Surely Russia explicitly positioning themselves as a common enemy of Europe (rather than the current cold war status) would galvanise Europe? Most of the far-right personalities across Europe are very soft on Russia, to say the least.
yread 2 hours ago [-]
On the other hand imagine how popular would a real nationalist far right party be that would say "fight Russia"
Gareth321 2 hours ago [-]
Yes it’s complicated. Nationalists aren’t necessarily right or far right. Until a few decades ago, the left were anti-migration and anti-globalisation due to the downward pressure on wages and working conditions. In this current political zeitgeist, the left have abandoned the working class and the right is happy to take their votes.
In a war with Russia, I imagine parties aligned with European strength would fare better. Parties which have previously suggested using kid gloves with Russia will fare worse. I think this implies that some right and left wing parties will not do well.
freefrog1234aa 2 hours ago [-]
Lavrov had said it would be a short war if Europe attacks, suggesting they will use nuclear weapons immediately. Russia knows it cannot win a conventional war with Europe.
They don't need a war with Europe for conscription, just to declare war on Ukraine instead of a Special Military Operation. There is pressure on Putin to do this to finish the war quickly, but he is resisting.
andy_ppp 44 minutes ago [-]
If Russia use nukes, every country in the world gets nukes and Moscow and St. Petersburg get destroyed at a minimum. For nukes to be a deterrent you have to be willing to use them in an immoral way unfortunately. Never mind that nuclear war comes with the potential that some good people inside Russia decide the president’s life is worth less than millions of innocent lives. We are also pretty sure the nukes Russia has are in a disastrous state of disrepair. Given all this it might better to sabre rattle than actually risk using them…
krige 2 hours ago [-]
Lavrov is a known liar: you can tell by the fact that he's moving his lips. That's kind of his job, really: lying.
jwr 11 hours ago [-]
No, there won't be an open attack, at least not yet. There will be more of those "hybrid" incursions. Russians will be gradually increasing the intensity of those operations, so that it becomes the new normal. There will never be a clear "well now they are attacking" boundary to point to.
Meanwhile, the EU is still buying fossil fuels from Russia, thus paying for all this. It boggles the mind.
red75prime 9 hours ago [-]
Long-term contracts. Also logistics is a harsh mistress. If you have no LNG terminals, your options of buying natural gas from the US are limited.
freefrog1234aa 2 hours ago [-]
Russia is only winning in Ukraine because Ukraine has been in a civil war since 2014. They can take oblasts in the East of Ukraine but have no hope of taking Western Ukraine. Attacking a united Europe is unfeasible. I suspect the war drums in Europe are more to support unpopular leaders like Macron and Mertz.
xyzal 13 minutes ago [-]
I am convinced that if a attack is to happen, it will be right after the midterms. The US will be paralyzed by invocation of the Insurrection Act (or similar coup-y acts) so, unable to react.
akmarinov 12 hours ago [-]
Interestingly enough 4 ships in the past week were sunk in Bulgaria’s territorial waters by drones.
The Bulgarian PM has refused to name Russia responsible.
It does seem like they’re “testing the waters”, so to speak.
kgeist 12 hours ago [-]
Attacking a NATO country would mean total war for Russia. Currently there are no signs that Russia is ready for total war, or willing to have one. Russia has been fighting a war of attrition in Ukraine for 4 years, without a moving frontline, exactly because it wants to win by slow attrition.
Total war (all money going to the war, millions of mobilized workers, etc.) would result in an economic collapse, which Russia is trying to avoid. Aside from "inconveniences" like Yandex AI not working after a data center hit, Russia's everyday life is largely unaffected by the war (at least compared to Ukraine's) - exactly because it is avoiding total war.
If Russia were desperate enough to finally go all in and have full mobilization (millions of conscripts, all industry working around the clock building nothing but drones and missiles, etc.), why would it start by attacking random EU countries instead of Ukraine itself? So I think it's very unlikely that anything is going to happen to Europe other than sabotage here and there. Remember that Putin is a KGB agent, and they're more about targeted tactical operations than strategic chess play.
The whole "special military operation" thing was itself just a way to quickly coerce Zelensky into signing an agreement by threatening force, without total war, but it fell apart, so they had to go this war-of-attrition route
9dev 11 hours ago [-]
> Attacking a NATO country would mean total war for Russia.
Is that so? I wouldn't trust the USA to commit to its NATO responsibilities anymore. The rest of NATO, torn as it is, could just as well find all kinds of reasons why this particular attack isn't a "real" attack, just to avoid the confrontation.
I wouldn't bet on that scenario happening, but as Russia, I wouldn't dismiss it outright either.
freefrog1234aa 1 hours ago [-]
Europe has 4 times the population of Russia. The only successful attacks in the past 20 years have been against politically divided countries, like Syria, Venezuela and Ukraine (civil war since 2014). Iran is united, and so is Europe.
Lavrov has indicated he knows Russia would lose a conventional war against Europe by saying that an attack by Europe would start a quick (i.e. nuclear) war.
I agree that the US would stay out, especially if it is nuclear.
yakshaving_jgt 12 hours ago [-]
> why would it start by attacking random EU countries instead of Ukraine itself?
Because it would force NATO to divert resources away from Ukraine.
kgeist 11 hours ago [-]
How would a direct war with NATO on several fronts help Russia win in Ukraine? Russia isn't ready for it in the slightest. As I said, if they wanted to go all in (full mobilization instead of partial, martial law, converting all industry to military production, etc.), it would be more logical to focus first on that 1 country they want to defeat, rather than immediately triggering Article 5 and fighting 32 countries at once. It just doesn't make any sense, and judging by the Kremlin's decisions over the last 4 years, I don't think they're that stupid.
yakshaving_jgt 11 hours ago [-]
If you're interested in the logic behind this war, you might be interested in learning from Anders Puck Nielsen, author of The Logic of War.
this goes both ways; they'd be gambling that NATO doesn't launch things into Russia. From the accounts I've seen they did strip down the rest of the border forts to supply Ukraine.
Also, most of NATO's existing resources are currently not doing much but standing around. You can question how useful NATO's 'pre-drone' material is, and how much hasn't already been sent to Ukraine, but it's not nothing.
kgeist 11 hours ago [-]
>they'd be gambling that NATO doesn't launch things into Russia
The official discourse in Russia is that NATO is already helping Ukraine launch things into Russia. So there's no gamble; for them, it's already a fact. Except, currently, it's just a proxy war where Ukraine has to jump through hoops to get military aid and targets approved, and it can only fire from Ukraine's territory. With a direct confrontation, there's no doubt that far more would be launched into Russia.
azan_ 11 hours ago [-]
> why would it start by attacking random EU countries instead of Ukraine itself?
Because if russian troops appear in EU countries, EU might be more willing to accept Ukraine losing larger territories in peace deals. That's why EU has to - once attacked - hit russia so strongly, that they will retreat on our conditions.
fierycatnet 10 hours ago [-]
Finally a lucid comment.
fierycatnet 10 hours ago [-]
They're not planning an attack on Eastern Europe. They are desperate to wrap up their Ukraine fiasco.
DrProtic 11 hours ago [-]
> their refineries have been blown up and their diesel will only last 6 months.
They literally just struck a deal with the US to export diesel, and Trump has been pressuring Ukraine (most recently by disabling Starlink) into not attacking refineries in Russia. Like, situation is the opposite of what you're saying.
EDIT:
To be clearer in case you need it.
As they agreed to export means they definitely have for more than 6 months (and I believe 6 months claim is naive at best.).
And as US is pressuring Ukraine to not attack refineries means they'll be safe.
mig39 7 hours ago [-]
In the comment you're replying to, "their diesel will only last 6 months" is a reference to Red Storm Rising. I don't think the commentator literally meant diesel. But whatever's happening inside Russia is forcing their hand. Either they act now, or their window shuts.
panzagl 11 hours ago [-]
Far be it from me to suggest that Trump has announced a deal that would be physically impossible to execute just to try to swing the upcoming midterm elections by a couple points, but my guess is the next we hear of the deal is when he's telling us it was ruined by Democrats somehow.
bigyabai 8 hours ago [-]
> And as US is pressuring Ukraine to not attack refineries means they'll be safe.
Refineries are not moving targets. TERCOM, INS and commercial GPS are all accurate alternatives to Starlink for attacking those positions if needed.
Fact is, the US lacks the hard power to deter strikes on Russian oil. They have the soft power they can abuse, but punishing Ukraine will push them towards more drastic reprisals. Russian oil infrastructure is built up around Moscow, and it's very vulnerable while air defenses are being moved to the frontlines. America simply doesn't control the escalation ladder.
CamperBob2 7 hours ago [-]
Refineries are not moving targets. TERCOM, INS and commercial GPS are all accurate alternatives to Starlink for attacking those positions if needed.
They need Starlink in order to attack other targets. Threatening Starlink is a way to coerce Ukraine into doing Trump's (and thus Putin's) bidding.
testing22321 9 hours ago [-]
Russia are getting the diesel to sell the Trump from Iran.
There’s tons of photos or Iranian tankers in convoy in Russia.
ttul 12 hours ago [-]
At least one betting market has the odds at around 25% [1] of a direct military conflict with a NATO country by year's end. It will be interesting to see how things change after November's midterm elections. For what it's worth, Metaculus forecasters show a spike of likelihood at the end of September, 2027, with about 20% of forecasters saying that's when a military clash will happen. I'm not sure what's driving that spike in the forecast.
Man do I feel gross knowing that there's people betting on this.
Gud 3 hours ago [-]
There are people making billions.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
And there are people losing the same amount. I don’t get why people would use these markets as rigged as they are, other than using them to steer outcomes. (Bet 1b that Poland will attack Russia and that gives an incentive for someone to take that bet and stop it happening. Or vice versa.)
freefrog1234aa 2 hours ago [-]
Europe lacks diesel, so that is not a motive for war.
Russia started exporting diesel to the US with Trump's new deal, indicating Russia has a surplus.
krige 2 hours ago [-]
Russia is exporting less than a day's worth of diesel per month. They don't have a surplus, they're trying to get US to stop Ukrainian attacks on their refineries, since they cannot do that on their own.
csirob 10 hours ago [-]
While the article deals with the topic that is not funny at all, I am amused by people having somewhat ironic names:
> Plamen Tonchev, head of Bulgaria's State Agency for National Security (DANS) said he believed the fire at the Starlink facility was an act of sabotage.
"Plamen" means "Flame", when translated from most Slavic languages (incl. bulgarian) to English.
There is definitely much more sympathy for Russia in Bulgaria than in Poland (I've noticed this esp. with older folks: "our Russian brothers").
flowerthoughts 3 hours ago [-]
I know next to nothing about Bulgaria, other than where it is.
Is that sympathy expressed for the people or for the nation? I definitely have sympathy for Russian mothers, having their sons sent to war. And the emigrants that can barely return to meet their family. But I'd also be happy to fight those sons if they think Russia has claims to anything outside previously agreed borders.
senderista 2 hours ago [-]
Disclaimer: I am not Bulgarian; I know it only through an ex and her family. I learned some of the language but didn't get anywhere near fluency (it is easier than Russian though).
The Bulgarian national myth has an important chapter in the late 19c where Russia liberates their fellow Orthodox Slavs from the Ottoman yoke[0], paving the way for modern Bulgarian independence. This is a powerful historical memory for many Bulgarians, but is somewhat tempered by their experience of Soviet rule, and also by contemporary Russian territorial aggression. But in my experience you will still find a lot of older folks who instinctively sympathize with Russia for these historical reasons. I will defer to any actual Bulgarians here, though, who understand these matters much better than I ever will.
Who else is very concerned that corporations are becoming valid war targets lately? I get that when a corporation is assisting a war effort it a combatant (corporate personhood etc..) but I work for a corporation and I don't want to be a valid war target.
xpct 4 hours ago [-]
I don't think you should feel entirely safe in warring nations, no matter what you do.
eddyfromtheblok 3 hours ago [-]
corporations don't care about you
trimethylpurine 10 hours ago [-]
Are you saying that you think providing people with internet access should be classified as an act of war, or do you mean that you worry that other people might?
timmmmmmay 9 hours ago [-]
always has been
mrtesthah 4 hours ago [-]
"Won't somebody please think of the corporations!?"
culi 13 hours ago [-]
I didn't realize that in addition to the 11,127 satellites in our orbit it also takes over 1,500 ground antenna in the US alone to run this network? It seems likely that there is much more ground infrastructure than space infrastructure to make Starlink work
MisterMunchkin 12 hours ago [-]
How else do you expect the satellites to connect to AWS or Google? It obviously has to come down at some point otherwise your packets wouldn’t be able to go anywhere…
api 13 hours ago [-]
The satellites are glorified repeaters.
There was some talk about having the satellites form a laser mesh but I don't think they've gone live with anything like that, so it almost always just comes back down at the nearest site.
Polizeiposaune 13 hours ago [-]
Most of the satellites now have three 200GBps inter-satellite links. The starlink V3 that will be launched on the big rocket reportedly have six ISLs.
Aachen 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, they had these plans from the get-go so launching the necessary hardware is not surprising. The question was whether anything like that went live
Once it does go live, anyone could see the lower ping between two users of this network. If they say it got enabled, that wouldn't be hard to independently verify
Polizeiposaune 9 hours ago [-]
What demonstrates ISL use is service availability in the middle of oceans, far from any ground station.
"Unlike older geostationary satellite systems that had coverage gaps and high latency over remote oceans, Starlink's low-earth orbit constellation covers the entire globe. Qatar Airways, United Airlines, Alaska Airlines, and airBaltic all offer uninterrupted Starlink on long-haul international routes."
aeyes 11 hours ago [-]
Its already live, Starlink works in the Arctic far outside the line of sight of any base station.
ranger_danger 12 hours ago [-]
Do you have a source for this claim?
Polizeiposaune 9 hours ago [-]
SpaceX form S-1 filed on 5/20/2026:
"... as of March 31, 2026, our constellation already incorporated over 23,000 inter-satellite lasers that create a dynamic mesh network in space, enabling traffic to route through orbit rather than relying solely on terrestrial backhaul infrastructure."
Since 2021 when they started deploying the v1.5 satellites.
devmor 10 hours ago [-]
The only source I have ever seen is the US SDA confirming they have seen a demonstration of Starlink’s ISL, in 2024.
Do you have any more detailed or up to date information? I’m not doubting that they built ISL capabilities, since ISL is often used for collision avoidance and small scale satcom - I’m doubting that it is being actively used to route internet traffic.
timmmmmmay 9 hours ago [-]
I used it in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on a Hawaiian Airlines flight two years ago, where have you been
10 hours ago [-]
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
My starlinks in Central Asia emerge from Bulgaria, 2,500 miles away.
Well, if they are just glorified repeaters, perhaps european union can hurry the fuck up and build their own network, because at the pace of events we are seeing in about 1 year from now, the USA and Russia will tell us how Ukraine and EU are responsible for starting the war and they need to learn a lesson.
Oh wait, we are already here as if few days ago. Never mind.
detritus 12 hours ago [-]
Wait. They're not doing the orbital mesh?!
I thought that was fundamental to the whole network?
Not another Elon bullshit?
happyopossum 10 hours ago [-]
They are doing orbital mesh, still need downlinks though, and having them close to the earthbound endpoint is key for low latency.
Ukrainian drones and missiles are using Starlink to navigate through Russian territory, and Russia is organizing these attacks to defend itself against them.
Culonavirus 1 hours ago [-]
Factually incorrect. Ukraninian drones or missiles flying over Russia are not using StarShield or Starlink. These are enabled by the US Gov / SpaceX only over Ukraine.
The long range strikes you're seeing have other nav methods (gps, intertial, etc.). I'm sure if Iran can figure it out, Ukraine can too...
10 hours ago [-]
toomuchtodo 13 hours ago [-]
I find it somewhat interesting Russia is likely sabotaging these stations while Musk is limiting StarLink capabilities to Ukraine in fighting Russia. Very Spy vs Spy. Pick a lane!
tcdent 13 hours ago [-]
You're talking about Starshield, which is operated by the US Government via services contracted, not personally regulated by Musk himself.
Starlink, the commercial product, was always off limits for military operations (the type that require connectivity at 100+ MPH).
So, no, this is not one person dictating the usage.
Starlink’s Acceptable Use Policy explicitly prohibits:
- Remotely controlling or piloting any aerial drone or unmanned vehicle (unless otherwise contractually permitted by SpaceX).
- Engaging in any military activity other than approved morale/welfare/recreation programs for service members.
culi 13 hours ago [-]
Starshield uses all of Starlink's satellites and a few special ones specific to Starshield. There's been plenty of cases in Ukraine of suicide drones being configured to starlink accounts instead of military ones. In fact, that's exactly how Russia took advantage of starlink for the first 2 years.
While there might be a legal distinction between the two systems, technically speaking, it's mostly a matter of configuration.
yencabulator 11 hours ago [-]
> Starlink, the commercial product, was always off limits for military operations (the type that require connectivity at 100+ MPH).
Lots of Ukrainian use of satellite communications is where people are hiding in a makeshift bunker. Those don't usually travel at 100+ MPH.
7 hours ago [-]
roosterIllusi0n 13 hours ago [-]
It's only one set of satellites. Stop pretending that its different.
flutas 12 hours ago [-]
They actually are separate satellites and it's easily checked:
This only says that dedicated satellites exist, which is obvious and public knowledge. What it doesn't comment on is whether starlink and starshield use any common ifra, which they almost certainly do. The number of starshield satellites is simply way, way, way too low to meet the claims that people are making about the system. It's a geometry problem.
toomuchtodo 13 hours ago [-]
Can you say with assurance, hopefully with evidence, which entity has degraded service as described?
> Starlink’s Acceptable Use Policy explicitly prohibits
Starlink's AUP is whatever Musk decides it is when he decides. He is petty, and there are robust examples of his pettiness as it relates to X and Starlink (I'm unaware if he's weaponized Tesla vehicle access in this regard, but welcome citations, if they exist).
"For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law."
(if you do not rely on Musk controlled systems, he cannot weaponize them against you; choose your risk exposure accordingly)
scottyah 13 hours ago [-]
Yes- if they were using it for drone attacks and the service stopped/slowed, that was not Starlink, because it never would have happened in the first place.
13 hours ago [-]
FireBeyond 8 hours ago [-]
> I'm unaware if he's weaponized Tesla vehicle access in this regard, but welcome citations, if they exist
Before the Model 3 was announced, a curious user poked around his car's network, and found multiple references to it, which he leaked to a news site.
Tesla responded by remotely forcibly downgrading his vehicle's firmware to an older version with no references to the 3 (presumably so he couldn't make any further discoveries), blacklisting his vehicle from getting any firmware upgrades, and to make sure he didn't try to thwart that, disabling the ethernet interface.
jkestner 13 hours ago [-]
You're telling me appeasement doesn't work?
13 hours ago [-]
chews 13 hours ago [-]
He get's his bags from the DoD either way... in-fact the chaos undoubtedly is actually more profitable, make hay while the sun is up... we live in a busted reality of broligarchs that are actually DoD welfare queens. They are literally on both sides of the trade so profit is inevitable. When america elect's a clown, we get a whole 3 ring circus.
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
> while Musk is limiting StarLink capabilities to Ukraine in fighting Russia
Can you share a link? AFAIK Musk blocked Starlink for Russians, not Ukrainians.
Lots of quotes from Ukrainians about what they are accusing SpaceX of, and even misleading titles "NO WARNING BEFORE STARLINK CUTS", but the actual meat of it is pretty hidden.
Starlink never allowed use for offensive drone attacks, Starshield is what they were using, and it is a product fully controlled by the USG.
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>Lots of quotes from Ukrainians about what they are accusing SpaceX of, and even misleading titles "NO WARNING BEFORE STARLINK CUTS"
Can we narrow down asking for a link to be some sort of legitimate news? These are links to forum posts linking to bluesky posts of "political commentators" that are factually incorrect.
Starlink != Starshield. Musk does not own Starshield. SpaceX does not own it. It's like blaming a flight route cancellation on Boeing.
> Hey, @elonmusk, big man, are you playing politics with your products again? As your European customers, we are watching you. -- Radosław Sikorski, Wicepremier, Minister Spraw Zagranicznych (2:37 AM · Oct 14, 2026, 1.8M Views)
(Radosław Tomasz "Radek" Sikorski is a Polish politician, journalist and statesman who is the longest-serving Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2023, previously holding the office between 2007 and 2014, since 2025 also serving as Deputy Prime Minister)
I appreciate the response, but quotes of people spreading known misinformation is not addressing the main concern. These are still just opinions.
toomuchtodo 10 hours ago [-]
Goal posts moving at the speed of light. Axios and Bloomberg are only not legitimate when you’ve already made up your mind.
As your comment said:
> Can we narrow down asking for a link to be some sort of legitimate news? These are links to forum posts linking to bluesky posts of "political commentators" that are factually incorrect.
Please prove this is “known misinformation” with citations. If you cannot, simply say you cannot.
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
Out of curiosity, how do you get all these many sources? Did you use a bot, or do you have much free time on your hands and a lot of emotional investment in the argument ?
Indeed, lots of free time because I've done well. Condolences to those who haven't yet. When all you've got is time, to be a scholar is divine (imho) if you have the means. Good luck to those who continue to grind for frivolous causes.
>If It's Worth Your Time To Lie, It's Worth My Time To Correct It
Where did I lie?
>to be a scholar is divine (imho)
Being an internet armchair warrior isn't really being a scholar though. Reddit is full of these too.
>because I've done well. Condolences to those who haven't yet. Good luck to those who continue to grind for frivolous causes.
Wow, how modest and humble too.
toomuchtodo 11 hours ago [-]
I should’ve been more specific with regards to my citation. You asked for evidence, I provided links as requested. Is it worth my time to? Sure, it takes but a moment. We discuss on a foundation of facts and evidence. Is my time spent doing other activities instead of discussing current events? It’s irrelevant, it’s how I choose to spend my time. I share, I learn, I know. I don’t have strong feelings on the topic, and how others think of me is not important to me (with regards to your comments about how I spend my time). Facts are facts. I hope this context answers your questions.
bflesch 13 hours ago [-]
It might just be feel-good propaganda to reduce the PR fallout for starlink/musk.
"See guys please don't cancel your Starlink orders russia also thinks we are the enemy!"
tencentshill 13 hours ago [-]
Scarily enough, money isn't his main motivation. He willingly destroyed tesla sales for politics.
jonas21 12 hours ago [-]
Did he though? Tesla sales have been basically flat for the past few years -- not growing, but certainly not "destroyed" either. They still have over 50% US market share for EVs.
And Tesla's stock price (which is what correlates with Musk's wealth) is up 50% since the 2024 election.
bflesch 13 hours ago [-]
It's not only about musk but about continued US influence over European defense. If every European defense company moves away from the Starlink platform the US loses a lot of leverage. If they create "plausible deniabiliy" feel-good propaganda like this one, then they can convince some decision makes to keep building defense projects upon the Starlink platform.
scottyah 13 hours ago [-]
Haha you really just can't win as a builder. Half the people despise him for doing anything for money, and the other half hate him because he cares for politics over money.
bigyabai 12 hours ago [-]
You may note that 0/2 halves appreciate his lack of principles and capricious political endeavors.
If it was, say, Tim Cook being dissected, people would also criticize his inconsistent political views and support for self-serving deregulation.
origini 13 hours ago [-]
I don't think he really cares about politics.
He was proper left wing before, switched over to right wing.
There were plenty of stories and timelines were he as really lucky regarding his money and his investments.
Im pretty sure he did all of this to lobby for himself.
Why would he try to change or fix USA Politics for the better of humanity if he stated that earth is over and we need mars.
DOGE? His way of fighting burocracy and environmental rules.
Giving money to Trump? Subsidies, advertising, reduction of environmental rules etc.
chews 13 hours ago [-]
He was left wing cause that sweet tax credit for alternate energy... does anyone remember A123 and the amount the Obama administration put into it. Literally, Solar City and Tesla were to hit the sweet sweeet rebates. You can see the effects by companies like Ford canceling the F150 lighting cause the consumer breaks are gone, he was pillaging California and other Federal rebates to build his businesses, then does SpaceX to suck funds from the DoD to launch NRO sattelites. His affiliations go where the money gun blows.
toomuchtodo 13 hours ago [-]
Nah, his daughter coming out as trans drove him over the edge as an egotistical controlling narcissist. He didn't build, the engineers who work(ed) for him did. They deserve the credit, both at Tesla and SpaceX. Those who engineer and build always deserve credit due. But that is not him.
scottyah 10 hours ago [-]
Wow that's a wild world view to have. Not sure how it holds up to reality when all the engineers are completely free to do whatever they want, but his companies are massively more successful than any others. Even with the previous World's Richest Man Bezos trying to poach everyone he has and copying/funding pretty much all the same ideas. Dare I ask which multi-trillion dollar companies you've been able to steal?
qwerpy 7 hours ago [-]
“It’ll never work” -> “someone else can do it but not him” -> “if he does do it, it’ll bankrupt him” -> “well he did it late” -> “it wasn’t actually him” (we are here now) -> “fine but i still don’t like him”
The [flagged][dead] who replied to your earlier comment is an example of someone who reached the final, terminal stage.
Fricken 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
heaney-555 13 hours ago [-]
>Musk is limiting StarLink capabilities to Ukraine
Incorrect. The US government limited Starshield, the military version of Starlink which it controls. SpaceX has no say.
paimapi 13 hours ago [-]
It must be nice to think there is such a clear and high wall between private corporate actors and the US government in 2026. I want to live in that delusion, too. Unfortunately, I retain a minimum amount of skepticism.
From the Starshield Wiki page:
>While SpaceX president and COO Gwynne Shotwell has indicated that there is little information she is allowed to disclose about Starshield, she has noted "very good collaboration" between the intelligence community and SpaceX on the program.
>The retired four-star general Terrence O'Shaughnessy, who previously ran U.S. Northern Command, is the vice president for SpaceX's Special Programs Group who is thought to be involved with Starshield.[1] The Wall Street Journal reported that Starshield's online job postings required people with top-secret clearances, as well as experience working with the Defense Department and intelligence community — such as representing Starshield to Pentagon combatant commands
>Col. Eric Felt, director of space architecture at the office of the assistant secretary of the Air Force for space acquisition and integration, said that there are plans to acquire at least 100 Starshield-branded satellites for this purpose by 2029. He said that while the military is an active user of SpaceX's commercial Starlink service, they also want to take advantage of the company's dedicated Starshield product line.
Some are disabled by Musk, some are disabled by sabotage. No contraddiction.
numpad0 13 hours ago [-]
Or that one wasn't Musk but Starlink sat2sat turns out to be mostly smoke and mirrors, and the satellites simply could not provide services without the ground station in the immediate vicinity of terminals.
hdgvhicv 1 hours ago [-]
I don’t get this claim that’s been repeated so much, given everyone can personally see the evidence (service over oceans, Antarctica etc)
9 hours ago [-]
AmericanOP 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
jmasukr 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
niothiel 9 hours ago [-]
This adds to the discussion so much, thank you.
postsantum 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
There's only 3 other comments ATM besides yours. You are the bot here.
platinumrad 13 hours ago [-]
I thought they "went away" after the Yandex data centers were hit.
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
origini 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
Sorry, I don't engage with trolls whos start comments with bad faith unsubstantiated accusations. To the Yandex datacenters with you.
For the rest who care, just Google "Germany naturalizations per year" and see the trend. You can't possibly tell me they vetted everyone who qualified for the ultra low bar to get a german passport, to check that they're also not a Putin sympathizer or a traitor/terrorist.
origini 13 hours ago [-]
Im a german, i told you already in my comment the argument i made.
Stop gasligthting and bring up a proper argument with a source.
The german state, similiar to canada, has a very basic clear rule how to get a passport. Hasn't changed in ages.
And for plenty of germans history this was on purpose. Turkey worker were invited 50? years ago.
PorciiVorbesc 13 hours ago [-]
>Im a german
You mean youre a "German passport holder" to be accurate.
origini 13 hours ago [-]
No im a german. A real german born and raised in germany as german.
Do i have a german passport holder? Yes that too.
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>No im a german. A real german
Isn't the trope of the self identified "real german" an AFD far-right white-supremacists talking point? You yourself fell into your own purity test trap.
origini 12 hours ago [-]
You are just trolling eh?
I clearly told you in my oriignal comment, that i'm german to make it clear that i'm not talking about another country but my own. Then you start being nitpicky about german passport holder? Which made me clarify that i'm not just saying something from a viewpoint of someone who migrated to germany.
Its depressing to try to have fun with proper discussions with people on the internet and only getting trolls :(
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>Then you start being nitpicky about german passport holder?
Because not every german passport holder is "a real German", your words, not mine.
Meaning it's very easy for bad actors who are not german and don't like germany, to get that piece of paper and do the work of foreign powers on german soil using their german passports as shield, when getting one is so easy.
One must be really thick or arguing in bad faith to not understand this problem.
origini 10 hours ago [-]
They could have also just used fake passports, or no passports because why would the passport here even matter?
2024. Reduced the residency requirement from 8 years to 5. Made big changes around dual citizenship too.
origini 12 hours ago [-]
I looked it up inmore detail, it was 'easy' enough before i would argue because 8 years were required since 2000 and for me therefore normal.
For a bit it was 3 but that already had high requirements.
Now its 5. If someone already has a stable job in germany, does 8 or 5 years really matter that much?
But might be my viewpoint perhaps? I thin people who work in germany for a long time should be able to get german citicenship. Would be unfair like in USA to want cheap labor and not give back?
PorciiVorbesc 12 hours ago [-]
>Would be unfair like in USA to want cheap labor and not give back?
Who cares about this "fairness", whatever that means? Plenty of countries, like Singapore doesn't give citizenship to anyone who does cheap labor there or even skilled labor, and it's one of the cleanest, safest countries in the world, way above Germany and the US.
Nobody cares about "fairness" to cheap labor, Singapore gov, being sane, cares first and foremost about maintaining national security, sovregnity and stable demographics that don't affect their democracy long term. Whether that's fair or not to cheap labor migrants, is irrelevant to the Singaporean government since it's their job to cater to Singaporean citizens, not to the migrants doing cheap labor there. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is.
There's no rewards for empathetic "fairness" either. How many Germans died in migrant islamic terrorist attacks since 2015 and how many in Singapore? See how your fairness gets rewarded? Germany got rewarded which higher crime rates, increased in sexual assault rates on women, concrete bollards and armed police at christmas markets and privacy invasive law enforcement laws to "keep you safe". And the proof is in the pudding: emigration of skilled Germans out of Germany is at record highs.
origini 10 hours ago [-]
Evolutionary its better to play nice to each other.
And just because one microstate has a positive example doesn't tell us anything.
Humanit is value, for some at least
morsch 12 hours ago [-]
Germany's naturalization rate is not out of the ordinary for the EU, either per capita or per number of foreign residents. Italy, Belgium, Spain and others "hand out more passports" relative to their own population than Germany; Poland, Ireland, the Netherlands and others "hand out more passports" relative to the amount of refugees that live in their countries. Germany is very much middle of the road. So, you know, whatever.
Meanwhile today's episode of Slow Horses, a British show, implied that Bulgaria is Russia's friend who will totally accept their plane with a spy and facilitate killing her on "neutral ground"
Sometimes u wonder how does the "West" get consistently so ignorant and/or lazy with their writing about the "East".
postingawayonhn 12 hours ago [-]
Europe looks incredibly weak at present and the US incredibly corrupt.
tclancy 9 hours ago [-]
Can you just pinpoint your location for us?
hdgvhicv 57 minutes ago [-]
I’m in Europe
There two possibilities. One is that our leaders being very secret about its fight back against the “hybrid war”. That seems unlikely given how many governments there are
The other is that there’s nothing much being done other than continued support of a democratic country that was invaded. The auS used to do that too during the Cold War, but that’s all ended now and the west hasn’t really groked it yet.
pelagicAustral 13 hours ago [-]
Right after Starlink partially cut the pipe to Ukraine... Right at the time an Ukranian is facing a court of justice for the Nord Stream pipeline...
Geof25 13 hours ago [-]
So you think that Ukraine is able to pull out such operation on foreign soil in matter of hours?
pelagicAustral 13 hours ago [-]
Assuming they have a semi-competent military complex, then they should be able to put together plans ahead of time, measures and counter-measures, just like any other institution. What's so shocking about that idea?
Seems pretty feasible at this point that they might be trying to drag NATO into all-out war.
kspacewalk2 12 hours ago [-]
Why would Ukraine attack infrastructure it uses (today's capabilities downgrade is partial, stationary terminals function just fine for example)? In a friendly country? Believe me, it has much more important things to worry about, like surviving a genocidal invasion and countering indiscriminate bombing campaigns.
>trying to drag NATO into all-out war.
By sabotaging a few antennas? "Dragging NATO into an all-out war" is no easy task, if even possible at this point. Just ask the Russians. They have attacked German airports with drones, and barely elicited an upgrade from moderate to strong concern.
12 hours ago [-]
pelagicAustral 12 hours ago [-]
At heart, honestly, I hope you are right, but the signs are there.
kspacewalk2 11 hours ago [-]
I only see signs of concern trolling and perhaps a bit of pro-Russian bias, to be honest.
Gud 3 hours ago [-]
No they aren’t.
antiford2049 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
pelagicAustral 12 hours ago [-]
Check your account creation date and karma and then compare it to this account. Then tell me who's more likely to be a bot.
It seems absurd that the government is blaming SpaceX for not securing its property against trespass and vandalism/arson, especially when it seems likely that the violations are by foreign-state-sponsored actors. If this sort of issue is not the responsibility of local police and federal agencies, I am not sure what is. I understand that railways in some countries have their own police, but it is my understanding that SpaceX has not been granted such powers in any country.
I’m trying to say that the logical conclusion is to shift the responsibility explicitly to SpaceX, since otherwise you have to admit the attacks are state sponsored and you have to name the perpetrator.
Ukraine responds to Russian attacks? Why Ukraine doesn’t want peace! Why Ukraine doesn’t just capitulate? The coalition of war(he means countries who support Ukraine militarily) is causing so much suffering.
The pro-Russian folks are insufferable.
Well, the official stance of the EU a couple of years ago, when the Nordstream pipeline was attacked, was that it was Russia (even though it was against its interests). So we can have something similar here, right? That it was Ukraine that sunk those vessels. I understand the Bulgarian PM, he's just trying to be a standard EU politician.
However, let's talk realpolitik.
Ukraine innovates and Russia copies/addapts. Russia has ALWAYS been good at this game. Russia reminds me so much of the roman military in this sense, extremely good at copying and incorporating foreign military tactics/equipment.
Think of the initial long convoys ukraine destroyed, the bayraktars -- Russia addapted, the then the brilliant Eastern campaign where Ukraine managed to route the russians -- Russia adapted, that stopped working, then the indiscriminate massive artilery strikes Russia was doing -- ukraine started using better western artilery and himars, stopped the russians but the russians also addapted spread their logistics and so on; then the drones -- russia copied those even innovated with fiberoptic drones, then the Shaheds, ukraine adapted with fpv interceptors, then Russia started using jet powered interceptors, balistic missiles -- Ukraine initially stunned the world with Patriot interceptors but Russia kept firing until Ukraine ran out of interceptors, then the USV -- Ukraine had and still has great success with them, but look, Russia started using USVs also and Ukraine has no response to those.
It looks like the end will be decided by the country who just has more resources and willpower to continue.
I'm seriously scared for the next years -- the US is clearly turning hostile to Ukraine, Europe is turing far right with russian puppets everywhere.
Nothing. Your master did with his 3 day invasion.
If I open something like a stadium, and whenever there's a big game I need a load of security to deal with traffic, drunk fans, and fights - arguably most of the security should be paid for from ticket sales, rather than the taxpayer, although the taxpayer should be there as the final backstop.
Likewise, if I have a bank with a vault full of valuables and I think it needs 3 armed guards present 24/7 - probably that's going to be at my expense, not that of the taxpayer. Although any bank should get a police presence in a reasonably timely manner, once they raise the alarm about a robbery.
Maybe Bulgaria differs from most countries, but security guards seem to be mostly theatre. Private actors are generally very limited in what they can do to secure property, and they're usually required to basically call the police and hope the police show up in time to do something, which is often unlikely in either the countryside or industrial areas.
As providers in the business of critical infrastructure they need to comply to the HIGHEST physical and digital security requirements, which includes taking preventive measures against acts of terrorism.
Not much is known about this case yet though, it's possible that their preventive procedures failed but their resilience procedures worked (was Starlink down?), and they reported the incident in compliance to EU CER and NIS2.
Either way, I'm sure they'll get an audit for EU CER compliance now, which will create a list of mandated immediate actions...
It doesn't take a gatling gun to prevent that, basic physical security and stronger incident-handling will suffice.
I read the statement as the government introduced additional security measures "even though responsibility for their protection rested with their owners". These measures weren't "surface-to-air missiles, flak cannons, Gatling guns, and anti-air radars". Clearly more could have been done before digging into the bag of silly options. The owners just didn't do it.
There's a fine line between hyperbola to make a point, and hyperbola as a silly attempt to blur the issue. You comment is on the wrong side.
When those people aren’t around Bulgaria is incredibly peaceful country.
You install gates, raise walls, limit access, hire personnel, etc.
The more you need to secure whatever it is, the more layers you have.
In general, any respectable warehouse would have an external wall with a single entrance to the parking, and then a second entrance to the building itself.
This. Police are just the clean-up crew who come 20 minutes after, and fill in the paperwork proving that something bad did indeed happen to you, that you can then use for your lawsuit or insurance claim, nothing more.
Unless you're a politician or the billionaire owner of an island, they're not gonna do much more to actually prevent or solve your problem.
An individual will be informed how not having a lock on the door was a failure in individual responsibility to prevent harm against yourself/others.
But an operator of digital infrastructure might get audited for compliance of the critical infrastructure directive/act. In the EU fines for such violations can be as high as €10 million or 2% of global turnover.
uh huh
Starlink providing services to a customer (which made them a target in this case) is not a matter the local government of that site needs to protect them against.
--> Is it a local governments' job to secure the local properties of e.g. Lockheed, or the job of Lockheed as a for-profit supplier to the military?
--
Edit, as I expected this to be much more widely known: If you are operating in the business of critical infrastructure (for which Starlink qualifies, explicitly "digital infrastructure"), you have obligations to protect your facilities against physical and cyber attacks and have resilience and business continuity processes in place.
If you decide to operate in a business segment for critical infrastructure, it is not the governments job to secure your business, YOU have to comply to the requirements of operating in this field, and the government can audit and shut down your business if you're not in compliance.
In the EU, where this incident took place, this is well-defined under the CER-directive, and further extended for IT under NIS2 and CRE.
In the US, it's covered by CISA and CIRCIA (Cyber Incident Reporting for Critical Infrastructure Act)
That doesn't absolve the orgs responsibility, but the questions should be directed at both.
It's not the responsibility of security agencies to prevent two guys from entering the premises of a critical infrastructure provider with gasoline.
They may have prior intelligence to act on this, but it is the operator of that facility who has the responsibility to ensure a certain level of security and resilience of his own premises, and this is strictly defined.
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> "Are Oil tankers and Cargo ships supposed to have air defense?"
No, this would turn a civilian into a combatant ship, causing it to lose the civilian protections of the UN (The Ocean is governed by conventions of the United Nations, it's a different jurisdiction)
And still, oil tankers and cargo ships have requirements to secure themselves against piracy, terrorism and even warfare, mandated by the international maritime organization.
Most of those could be easily targeted and taken out by a large organized group but people are generally good and dont do that. If a country's military attacked though you wouldn't blame the water company for someone cutting the locks and destroying the water pumps. Or blowing up an electric facility.
Its not like this is just some random companies headquarters where they have some vehicles and someone broke the gates to spray paint the trucks.
This is an attack on the people of the country as a whole. The attackers are not vandalizing the internet because they dislike starlink they are attacking its people by destroying infrastructure. there is a major difference between the two.
Yep, the EU classifies this as "critical infrastructure". Operators of such services (including water, electricity and digital infrastructure) have to comply to the highest level of the EU CER-directive for Physical and Cyber Security. This includes physical shielding, strict access controls and resilience against physical sabotage/terrorism as well as natural disasters or severe climate changes
I agree that the government should step up on against the military adversary on a country/regional level, but even then it is not their job to step in and do the job of Starlink as a provider of critical digital infrastructure.
A player in these markets has an obligation to secure his own facilities, otherwise every new market-entrant can undercut all competitors by not investing in security at all, until it's big enough to become a national risk and the government steps in to secure its business.
It's in the core interest of any government to protect its citizens, including corporate ones.
Corporations have more duties of different scale than individuals.
Starlink is a provider of Digital Infrastructure, and is already classified as "Essential Entity" under the EU CER-directive.
As such, it needs to comply with so-called "Physical-Cyber Convergence Requirements", which entails
1. Perimeter and Access Defense
2. All-Hazards Mitigation: Designing infrastructure to resist natural disasters, severe climate changes, or physical sabotage/terrorism.
3. Vetted Personnel: Utilizing mandatory background checks and security clearances for operators working in sensitive zones
Not much is known about this incident at this stage, and I'm sure the government will conduct own investigations. But regardless of the outcome, it will be the duty of Starlink to secure its facilities.
Petty vandalism no, but I’ve worked at a few and know more completely non-military business premises that absolutely have “military barricade” or the like quietly in their contingency plans.
Funny thing is, a bit of arson is kind of normal on their estates. But usually it’s just stolen cars.
Operators of such services have to comply to the highest level of the EU CER-directive for Physical and Cyber Security. This includes physical shielding, strict access controls and resilience against physical sabotage/terrorism as well as natural disasters or severe climate changes. This is the duty of every player in this business.
The government has a job to stand up against a potential adversary of the country (be it other countries or local terrorists), and in case of an attack on critical infrastructure the government will also step in to protect it, I agree on that.
But it doesn't have the job to take over Starlink's (or whoever's) business operations and make it secure. That is the job of the company, long before it even appears on any map of a potential adversary...
It's the government's job to protect against crime, but the duty of an individual to take proactive measures against becoming a victim of crime ("Individual Responsibility").
--> They won't put a policeman in front of my house just because I decided to not have a door on my house.
-
Equally, (and MUCH more explicitly), it's the legal duty of corporations to protect themsselves against crime, especially if they provide critical infrastructure.
--> They won't put police all over my facilities just because I didn't invest in access-control.
--> In this case, I am not in compliance with the law and considered to invite(!) crime
A critical infrastructure company has an obligation to keep their facilities secure. And the government has a responsibility to prevent attacks by foreign actors on critical infrastructure.
I replied explicitly to "crime", not "foreign actors", let's not conflate those just for a straw-man argument.
Preventing attacks by foreign actors is part of National intelligence and military, this is an entirely different matter. Both are entities facing outwards of a country, not inwards.
But more importantly, their job is not to fulfill the required security duties of a critical infrastructure company to prevent physical/digital attacks against the operation and resilience of its infrastructure.
And even IF they protect such a company in case of an imminent external threat, this is not a replacement for the legally required security compliance.
The critical infrastructure act (US) and directive (EU) mandate strategic measures to take explicitly against terrorist attacks, even natural disasters.
The government won't come to your company and do this job FOR you, they will lock you up and, in the EU, charge you up to xx% of your global annual revenue if they find out you're not doing it.
As a provider for digital infrastructure, Starlink is required to comply with the EU Critical Entities Resilience (CER) Directive, which mandates strict physical and digital security as well as business continuity in case of crisis.
The nature of this incident indicates a security issue on the site of Starlink, which is their duty, not the governments.
They may have not been in compliance with this directive, which puts local infrastructure and citizens and risk.
because this isn't 'vandalism', this is an act of war by a foreign adversary that is now happening on European and NATO soil on a daily basis, and instead of responding accordingly we talk about this as if a drunk kid laid a fire somewhere
Agree, the government should step in and (finally!!) take actions against those foreign adversaries.
But this doesn't change the fact that it is not the governments role to protect the facilities of a infrastructure provider against sabotage (or even acts of terror), a company providing such services in the EU has to comply to the CER directive and secure its operations.
There is a very basic reason for that: I could undercut every provider on the market by not investing in security and resilience. while everything works well I will beat all my established competitors and gain a significant share of the market.
This creates a risk of critical infrastructure stability for the citizens of that country. So if inevitable issues in resilience arise.....I demand the government to step in and take over my operations...?
It's cute when Americans assume every country's constitution is the same as their own.
I think neither private companies nor tax-payers would appreciate if the POLICE would run security for a for-profit corporation, as it means that all corporate access-permissions would de-facto be managed by the government administration (which would be financed by the taxes of citizens and other corporations...)
Also: Would be even more ironic for Starlink to now demand big-BIG-government after their CEO keeps pushing for small-government for years now. But it fits the typical "Privatize profits, socialize costs" view...
It's the Balkans mate. You pay next to no taxes, and so you also get next to no services back from the government.
The Police, education, healthcare, courts, etc. that exist, is just a skeleton crew in minimum load bearing role, not to actually solve your problem when you need it. For that you gotta pay private and costs extra.
Because foreign corporations operating in the Balkans pay taxes in the balkans, own property/real estate on Balkan soil on which their business operates, and employ workers in the balkans.
Ahaha, as if.
Foreign corporations with presence but no local entity pay no taxes. Foreign corporations with local entities somehow manage pay zero taxes because all profits are transferred to their Ireland parent entities.
Domestic corporations have far less options to not pay taxes, so they mostly do.
Huh? So by your logic, if Russian soldiers in fatigues are shooting up a Ukrainian Roshen candy shop in Sofia Bulgaria, it's no the job of the Bulgarian state to intervene and fire back at those Russian soldiers on Bulgarian soil or arrest them, because according to you it's just a war dispute between Russia and Ukraine that doesn't concern Bulgaria and it's government law enforcement?
In the end it'll be up to the courts to decide if the incident on Starlink is an act of war not covered by insurance and law enforcement, or vandalism that falls under the responsibility of the Bulgarian state law enforcement, but you're logic is pure comedic FUBAR.
And, well, would you expect the state to proactively assign military protection details to such people?
No. They would have their own body guards, and maybe a police protection if needed. But not army.
The spy and counterspy agency would probably investigate, but they are not going to post a flak cannon next to each Starlink base station.
Funny you mention that - Russia has tried at least once going back as far as 2024[1]. State security services intervened.
> US intelligence discovered earlier this year that the Russian government planned to assassinate the chief executive of a powerful German arms manufacturer that has been producing artillery shells and military vehicles for Ukraine, according to five US and western officials familiar with the episode.
> When the Americans learned of the effort, they informed Germany, whose security services were then able to protect Papperger and foil the plot. A high-level German government official confirmed that Berlin was warned about the plot by the US.
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-ru...
Secret Squirrels will obviously keep track of who wants to blow up Starlink, but they will not interfere unless it makes sense for the country.
Completely different than parking a tank preventively in front of each base station. Or even just a police car.
It’s not exactly uncommon or inconceivable that yes, the property of foreigners doesn’t quite get the same protections.
And by your own argument, Bulgaria would also be at war with Russia then, since Bulgaria has been supporting Ukraine with weapons and material in this war.
... it means those properties are own sovereign nations, or at least autonomous zones! woo hoo, time to declare independence of People's Republic of Mars.
SpaceX is actively meddling in foreign-state wars picking whichever side they choose to support on which day. They made their bed.
Starlink is banned, by the US government, from operating in a military context, and cannot be used for military purposes. Do you have a reference/examples for them meddling/supporting wars, or a hint at what you're referring to for someone out of the loop? This is not allowed by very many laws and policies that have been in place since the company started operating.
I suspect you're making a logical leap that them stopping means they're now supporting some opposition?
Maybe this is the recent disruption referenced?
> On 14 October 2026, Musk said the Ukrainian military was using the US government owned and controlled Starshield system, not Starlink, and the recent change to restrict operational user terminals to those travelling at less than 100 mph (160 km/h) was a US government decision and not his decision.[87]
Fucking disgusting.
But nobody will pay attention because it’s more profitable that way.
Nationalize the infrastructure if it's that important to the public.
Every place SpaceX decides to operate, regardless of what taxpayers want, the taxpayers should foot the entire security bill for their private facilities?
Sounds like socialism.
The comments in this thread you’ve joined seem to imply a private company should be held to no standards, and that this specific company’s security should primarily be the responsibility of other taxpayers.
So to prevent a sabotage is to have several layers of security (i.e multiple fences) so you will force the saboteur to commit minor crimes like trespassing first and also slow the saboteur significantly so you can arrest him for these minor crimes.
You can very well arrest someone for the intention of sabotaging.
https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/05/spacex-pushed-sniper-t...
Less tongue-in-cheek, I would absolutely expect SpaceX has an entire department responsible for security of assets like these.
Sure you can. We convict people of conspiracy all the time.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/overt_act
Tips? Mistakes? Customs officers getting a funny feeling about something in their bags? Google searches? Purchases of stuff to make explosives with? Surveillance? The child tells their parents some creepy guy offered them a thousand Euros? Do you think intelligence agencies don't already look for this sort of thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius has a nice example of how this works that doesn't even rely on modern surveillance tech. They accomplished zero sabotage, and six were put to death for it.
> Even before the mission began, it was in danger of being compromised, as George Dasch, commander of the team, left confidential documents on a train, and one of the agents, while drunk, announced to patrons in a Paris tavern that he was a secret agent.
> Immediately upon reaching the beach, at around 30 minutes past midnight the saboteurs were discovered amidst the dunes by unarmed Coast Guard Seaman John C. Cullen, who was accosted by Dasch and offered a bribe of $300. (Cullen had been shortchanged, the money only amounted to $260.) Cullen feigned cooperation but reported the encounter.
> Additional breaches of secrecy occurred; Kerling had boasted to a colleague about their mission, and in Chicago, Herbert Haupt had asked his father to buy him a sports car claiming he needed it while traveling on business for the German government.
Any operation involving humans has opportunities for fuckups.
Why would I presume this to be any more accurate than "can't arrest somebody for a sabotage without letting him to execute the deed" was?
If sabotage is so easy to perform without detection, why aren't motivated actors doing more of it? It's certainly not a lack of motive at play, here.
Humans make mistakes. The saboteur can't afford any. The cops only have to get lucky once. And these are the folks who mix up "SIM card" with the game "The Sims" (https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/04/26/russia...).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System
> After the war, it was discovered that all the agents Germany sent to Britain had given themselves up or had been captured, with the possible exception of one who committed suicide.
Not a single successful agent in five years of war.
Do you think they publicly announce every one they catch? Or that none are ever deterred?
> It turns out that one can't see into a mind of other person.
And yet, we manage to catch people planning things, because sabotage requires more than just a thought.
It’s just like red storm rising, their refineries have been blown up and their diesel will only last 6 months. They need to move now or they’ll have to accept peace and economic prosperity.
Mobilization turned out to be extremely unpopular, so they can't just do that without some exceptional cause.
That cause would be NATO attacking Russia. So they're engaging heavily in hybrid warfare, doing stuff like that in Europe. They're tying to provoke some small retaliation from NATO countries.
If that happens, they'll declare that the barbarians are at the gate, and they need a huge mobilization of troops.
But they have no interest in actually fighting against NATO. It would end disastrously for Russia, any way you slice it. Kaliningrad would be completely cut off and surrounded, their Arctic and Baltic sea routes would be hostile.
As a bonus, a potential real war with Russia would increase far-right isolationist popularity in Europe.
Personally I think this is all a play to mobilize a ton of soldiers, send them to Ukraine, and expand their occupied areas before a peace deal comes to the table.
In a war with Russia, I imagine parties aligned with European strength would fare better. Parties which have previously suggested using kid gloves with Russia will fare worse. I think this implies that some right and left wing parties will not do well.
They don't need a war with Europe for conscription, just to declare war on Ukraine instead of a Special Military Operation. There is pressure on Putin to do this to finish the war quickly, but he is resisting.
Meanwhile, the EU is still buying fossil fuels from Russia, thus paying for all this. It boggles the mind.
The Bulgarian PM has refused to name Russia responsible.
It does seem like they’re “testing the waters”, so to speak.
Total war (all money going to the war, millions of mobilized workers, etc.) would result in an economic collapse, which Russia is trying to avoid. Aside from "inconveniences" like Yandex AI not working after a data center hit, Russia's everyday life is largely unaffected by the war (at least compared to Ukraine's) - exactly because it is avoiding total war.
If Russia were desperate enough to finally go all in and have full mobilization (millions of conscripts, all industry working around the clock building nothing but drones and missiles, etc.), why would it start by attacking random EU countries instead of Ukraine itself? So I think it's very unlikely that anything is going to happen to Europe other than sabotage here and there. Remember that Putin is a KGB agent, and they're more about targeted tactical operations than strategic chess play.
The whole "special military operation" thing was itself just a way to quickly coerce Zelensky into signing an agreement by threatening force, without total war, but it fell apart, so they had to go this war-of-attrition route
Is that so? I wouldn't trust the USA to commit to its NATO responsibilities anymore. The rest of NATO, torn as it is, could just as well find all kinds of reasons why this particular attack isn't a "real" attack, just to avoid the confrontation.
I wouldn't bet on that scenario happening, but as Russia, I wouldn't dismiss it outright either.
Lavrov has indicated he knows Russia would lose a conventional war against Europe by saying that an attack by Europe would start a quick (i.e. nuclear) war.
I agree that the US would stay out, especially if it is nuclear.
Because it would force NATO to divert resources away from Ukraine.
- https://youtu.be/z61ZuZ08jRA?si=_GChfuUptluluave&t=602
- https://youtu.be/NCEKsF9w8uQ?si=WkguFDu0vSdm1dbR&t=405
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opa3s2VuD0s
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQmxNTloGmw
Also, most of NATO's existing resources are currently not doing much but standing around. You can question how useful NATO's 'pre-drone' material is, and how much hasn't already been sent to Ukraine, but it's not nothing.
The official discourse in Russia is that NATO is already helping Ukraine launch things into Russia. So there's no gamble; for them, it's already a fact. Except, currently, it's just a proxy war where Ukraine has to jump through hoops to get military aid and targets approved, and it can only fire from Ukraine's territory. With a direct confrontation, there's no doubt that far more would be launched into Russia.
Because if russian troops appear in EU countries, EU might be more willing to accept Ukraine losing larger territories in peace deals. That's why EU has to - once attacked - hit russia so strongly, that they will retreat on our conditions.
They literally just struck a deal with the US to export diesel, and Trump has been pressuring Ukraine (most recently by disabling Starlink) into not attacking refineries in Russia. Like, situation is the opposite of what you're saying.
EDIT: To be clearer in case you need it.
As they agreed to export means they definitely have for more than 6 months (and I believe 6 months claim is naive at best.).
And as US is pressuring Ukraine to not attack refineries means they'll be safe.
Refineries are not moving targets. TERCOM, INS and commercial GPS are all accurate alternatives to Starlink for attacking those positions if needed.
Fact is, the US lacks the hard power to deter strikes on Russian oil. They have the soft power they can abuse, but punishing Ukraine will push them towards more drastic reprisals. Russian oil infrastructure is built up around Moscow, and it's very vulnerable while air defenses are being moved to the frontlines. America simply doesn't control the escalation ladder.
They need Starlink in order to attack other targets. Threatening Starlink is a way to coerce Ukraine into doing Trump's (and thus Putin's) bidding.
There’s tons of photos or Iranian tankers in convoy in Russia.
[1] https://polymarket.com/event/nato-x-russia-military-clash-in... [2] https://www.metaculus.com/questions/41238/when-will-russia-a...
Russia started exporting diesel to the US with Trump's new deal, indicating Russia has a surplus.
> Plamen Tonchev, head of Bulgaria's State Agency for National Security (DANS) said he believed the fire at the Starlink facility was an act of sabotage.
"Plamen" means "Flame", when translated from most Slavic languages (incl. bulgarian) to English.
Is that sympathy expressed for the people or for the nation? I definitely have sympathy for Russian mothers, having their sons sent to war. And the emigrants that can barely return to meet their family. But I'd also be happy to fight those sons if they think Russia has claims to anything outside previously agreed borders.
The Bulgarian national myth has an important chapter in the late 19c where Russia liberates their fellow Orthodox Slavs from the Ottoman yoke[0], paving the way for modern Bulgarian independence. This is a powerful historical memory for many Bulgarians, but is somewhat tempered by their experience of Soviet rule, and also by contemporary Russian territorial aggression. But in my experience you will still find a lot of older folks who instinctively sympathize with Russia for these historical reasons. I will defer to any actual Bulgarians here, though, who understand these matters much better than I ever will.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1877%E2%80%...
There was some talk about having the satellites form a laser mesh but I don't think they've gone live with anything like that, so it almost always just comes back down at the nearest site.
Once it does go live, anyone could see the lower ping between two users of this network. If they say it got enabled, that wouldn't be hard to independently verify
https://www.starlinkflights.com/how-to-check-starlink-flight:
"Unlike older geostationary satellite systems that had coverage gaps and high latency over remote oceans, Starlink's low-earth orbit constellation covers the entire globe. Qatar Airways, United Airlines, Alaska Airlines, and airBaltic all offer uninterrupted Starlink on long-haul international routes."
"... as of March 31, 2026, our constellation already incorporated over 23,000 inter-satellite lasers that create a dynamic mesh network in space, enabling traffic to route through orbit rather than relying solely on terrestrial backhaul infrastructure."
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1181412/000162828026...
Do you have any more detailed or up to date information? I’m not doubting that they built ISL capabilities, since ISL is often used for collision avoidance and small scale satcom - I’m doubting that it is being actively used to route internet traffic.
https://www.trackstarlink.com/guides/starlink-laser-links-ex...
https://www.royalcaribbean.com/guides/wifi-cruise-packages
Oh wait, we are already here as if few days ago. Never mind.
I thought that was fundamental to the whole network?
Not another Elon bullshit?
[0]https://www.trackstarlink.com/guides/starlink-laser-links-ex... [1]https://starlink.com/technology
The long range strikes you're seeing have other nav methods (gps, intertial, etc.). I'm sure if Iran can figure it out, Ukraine can too...
Starlink, the commercial product, was always off limits for military operations (the type that require connectivity at 100+ MPH).
So, no, this is not one person dictating the usage.
Starlink’s Acceptable Use Policy explicitly prohibits:
- Remotely controlling or piloting any aerial drone or unmanned vehicle (unless otherwise contractually permitted by SpaceX).
- Engaging in any military activity other than approved morale/welfare/recreation programs for service members.
While there might be a legal distinction between the two systems, technically speaking, it's mostly a matter of configuration.
Lots of Ukrainian use of satellite communications is where people are hiding in a makeshift bunker. Those don't usually travel at 100+ MPH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starshield#Launches
> Starlink’s Acceptable Use Policy explicitly prohibits
Starlink's AUP is whatever Musk decides it is when he decides. He is petty, and there are robust examples of his pettiness as it relates to X and Starlink (I'm unaware if he's weaponized Tesla vehicle access in this regard, but welcome citations, if they exist).
"For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law."
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/04/29/musk-more-petty...
(if you do not rely on Musk controlled systems, he cannot weaponize them against you; choose your risk exposure accordingly)
Before the Model 3 was announced, a curious user poked around his car's network, and found multiple references to it, which he leaked to a news site.
Tesla responded by remotely forcibly downgrading his vehicle's firmware to an older version with no references to the 3 (presumably so he couldn't make any further discoveries), blacklisting his vehicle from getting any firmware upgrades, and to make sure he didn't try to thwart that, disabling the ethernet interface.
Can you share a link? AFAIK Musk blocked Starlink for Russians, not Ukrainians.
Starlink never allowed use for offensive drone attacks, Starshield is what they were using, and it is a product fully controlled by the USG.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
Starlink != Starshield. Musk does not own Starshield. SpaceX does not own it. It's like blaming a flight route cancellation on Boeing.
Gift link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-10-14/poland-gr...
Paywall Bypass: https://archive.today/NSzQK
https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2110273651023151330 | https://archive.today/QMMFU
> Hey, @elonmusk, big man, are you playing politics with your products again? As your European customers, we are watching you. -- Radosław Sikorski, Wicepremier, Minister Spraw Zagranicznych (2:37 AM · Oct 14, 2026, 1.8M Views)
(Radosław Tomasz "Radek" Sikorski is a Polish politician, journalist and statesman who is the longest-serving Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2023, previously holding the office between 2007 and 2014, since 2025 also serving as Deputy Prime Minister)
Ukraine's Starlink restrictions raise suspicions of Musk, Trump retaliation - https://www.axios.com/2026/10/14/ukraine-starlink-zelensky-s... - October 14th, 2026
As your comment said:
> Can we narrow down asking for a link to be some sort of legitimate news? These are links to forum posts linking to bluesky posts of "political commentators" that are factually incorrect.
Please prove this is “known misinformation” with citations. If you cannot, simply say you cannot.
Indeed, lots of free time because I've done well. Condolences to those who haven't yet. When all you've got is time, to be a scholar is divine (imho) if you have the means. Good luck to those who continue to grind for frivolous causes.
https://giphy.com/gifs/crazy-johnny-depp-jack-Efi4MpChuhHtm
Edit: @jacquesm highest praise, many thanks.
Where did I lie?
>to be a scholar is divine (imho)
Being an internet armchair warrior isn't really being a scholar though. Reddit is full of these too.
>because I've done well. Condolences to those who haven't yet. Good luck to those who continue to grind for frivolous causes.
Wow, how modest and humble too.
"See guys please don't cancel your Starlink orders russia also thinks we are the enemy!"
And Tesla's stock price (which is what correlates with Musk's wealth) is up 50% since the 2024 election.
If it was, say, Tim Cook being dissected, people would also criticize his inconsistent political views and support for self-serving deregulation.
He was proper left wing before, switched over to right wing.
There were plenty of stories and timelines were he as really lucky regarding his money and his investments.
Im pretty sure he did all of this to lobby for himself.
Why would he try to change or fix USA Politics for the better of humanity if he stated that earth is over and we need mars.
DOGE? His way of fighting burocracy and environmental rules. Giving money to Trump? Subsidies, advertising, reduction of environmental rules etc.
The [flagged][dead] who replied to your earlier comment is an example of someone who reached the final, terminal stage.
Incorrect. The US government limited Starshield, the military version of Starlink which it controls. SpaceX has no say.
From the Starshield Wiki page:
>While SpaceX president and COO Gwynne Shotwell has indicated that there is little information she is allowed to disclose about Starshield, she has noted "very good collaboration" between the intelligence community and SpaceX on the program.
>The retired four-star general Terrence O'Shaughnessy, who previously ran U.S. Northern Command, is the vice president for SpaceX's Special Programs Group who is thought to be involved with Starshield.[1] The Wall Street Journal reported that Starshield's online job postings required people with top-secret clearances, as well as experience working with the Defense Department and intelligence community — such as representing Starshield to Pentagon combatant commands
>Col. Eric Felt, director of space architecture at the office of the assistant secretary of the Air Force for space acquisition and integration, said that there are plans to acquire at least 100 Starshield-branded satellites for this purpose by 2029. He said that while the military is an active user of SpaceX's commercial Starlink service, they also want to take advantage of the company's dedicated Starshield product line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Starshield
For the rest who care, just Google "Germany naturalizations per year" and see the trend. You can't possibly tell me they vetted everyone who qualified for the ultra low bar to get a german passport, to check that they're also not a Putin sympathizer or a traitor/terrorist.
Stop gasligthting and bring up a proper argument with a source.
The german state, similiar to canada, has a very basic clear rule how to get a passport. Hasn't changed in ages.
And for plenty of germans history this was on purpose. Turkey worker were invited 50? years ago.
You mean youre a "German passport holder" to be accurate.
Do i have a german passport holder? Yes that too.
Isn't the trope of the self identified "real german" an AFD far-right white-supremacists talking point? You yourself fell into your own purity test trap.
I clearly told you in my oriignal comment, that i'm german to make it clear that i'm not talking about another country but my own. Then you start being nitpicky about german passport holder? Which made me clarify that i'm not just saying something from a viewpoint of someone who migrated to germany.
Its depressing to try to have fun with proper discussions with people on the internet and only getting trolls :(
Because not every german passport holder is "a real German", your words, not mine.
Meaning it's very easy for bad actors who are not german and don't like germany, to get that piece of paper and do the work of foreign powers on german soil using their german passports as shield, when getting one is so easy.
One must be really thick or arguing in bad faith to not understand this problem.
Or a passport from another country?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Reform_...
2024. Reduced the residency requirement from 8 years to 5. Made big changes around dual citizenship too.
For a bit it was 3 but that already had high requirements.
Now its 5. If someone already has a stable job in germany, does 8 or 5 years really matter that much?
But might be my viewpoint perhaps? I thin people who work in germany for a long time should be able to get german citicenship. Would be unfair like in USA to want cheap labor and not give back?
Who cares about this "fairness", whatever that means? Plenty of countries, like Singapore doesn't give citizenship to anyone who does cheap labor there or even skilled labor, and it's one of the cleanest, safest countries in the world, way above Germany and the US.
Nobody cares about "fairness" to cheap labor, Singapore gov, being sane, cares first and foremost about maintaining national security, sovregnity and stable demographics that don't affect their democracy long term. Whether that's fair or not to cheap labor migrants, is irrelevant to the Singaporean government since it's their job to cater to Singaporean citizens, not to the migrants doing cheap labor there. It sounds harsh, but that's how it is.
There's no rewards for empathetic "fairness" either. How many Germans died in migrant islamic terrorist attacks since 2015 and how many in Singapore? See how your fairness gets rewarded? Germany got rewarded which higher crime rates, increased in sexual assault rates on women, concrete bollards and armed police at christmas markets and privacy invasive law enforcement laws to "keep you safe". And the proof is in the pudding: emigration of skilled Germans out of Germany is at record highs.
And just because one microstate has a positive example doesn't tell us anything.
Humanit is value, for some at least
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/7870049/24010214/KS-...
Sometimes u wonder how does the "West" get consistently so ignorant and/or lazy with their writing about the "East".
There two possibilities. One is that our leaders being very secret about its fight back against the “hybrid war”. That seems unlikely given how many governments there are
The other is that there’s nothing much being done other than continued support of a democratic country that was invaded. The auS used to do that too during the Cold War, but that’s all ended now and the west hasn’t really groked it yet.
Seems pretty feasible at this point that they might be trying to drag NATO into all-out war.
>trying to drag NATO into all-out war.
By sabotaging a few antennas? "Dragging NATO into an all-out war" is no easy task, if even possible at this point. Just ask the Russians. They have attacked German airports with drones, and barely elicited an upgrade from moderate to strong concern.